Tiger stalled, so I replaced the intake & carb! Long…

[adventurer-96]

It’s been a long journey, but due to a deployment, a baby, a tight budget and some problems I didn’t think I could fix, I postponed working on my mostly restored Tiger for almost a year.

I picked up an Edelbrock F4B intake and a Holley 390cfm carb about a year and a half ago in anticipation of one day installing them, but it became apparent that I needed to get them replaced when the car kept stalling out on me after short (1/10th of a mile) distances.

I initially thought it was the fuel pump, but I got to thinking about what else it might have been since I replaced the fuel pump. It boiled down to either a bad carb/intake, or a leaky brake booster that was somehow leaking brake fluid via the vacuum line into the intake, and stalling the engine.

I disconnected the brake booster, bypassed it and removed it. No problems there.

I removed the stock intake and carb, no problems there.

I installed the F4B and Holley, no big problems except I had to install a throttle cable extension and wire the electric choke.

All went well until I turned the key, and I could tell that something was drastically wrong with the car. Misfires, out of sequence – terrible. Fast forward, and I realized the distributor was installed incorrectly, and my friend helped me install correctly. Vroom vroom, set the timing, and off we go.

However, here’s the kicker – I drive it to get the safety inspection done, and it’s leaking coolant like crazy all over the parking lot. It’s pouring out of the water neck. Replace the gasket, liberal application of gasket sealant, and it leaks again, this time as soon as I pour it into the intake. To add insult to injury, the aluminum bolt holes strip, and I have to tap them for 3/8th inch. Grrrr…

Fast forward again, and (never having worked on a car like this before) I realize that there’s no inlet in the F4B like the stock manifold for the thermostat, so there’s really no way to make a water-tight seal with a thermostat. Goodbye thermostat, hello leak-free water neck, so far.

Tomorrow will be the big day, as I’m going to start it up to see if it holds under pressure, although I don’t see how it couldn’t in this case. Famous last words. I was going to use a 160 degree high-flow thermostat anyway, but I guess cast aluminum would heat up fine so I shouldn’t worry about running without a thermostat.

More to follow this week, good to be back – maybe I’ll even get the doors together this winter!

Pete

[v-mad]

quote Adventurer_96:

………………
However, here’s the kicker – I drive it to get the safety inspection done, and it’s leaking coolant like crazy all over the parking lot. It’s pouring out of the water neck. …….I realize that there’s no inlet in the F4B like the stock manifold for the thermostat, so there’s really no way to make a water-tight seal with a thermostat…..
Pete

Sorry to hear your problems. I just finished converting to Holley 4-Barrell and I used a Ford Alu intake manifold. To refit the water neck I used some gasket cement to hold the stat in the neck while I fitted it to the manifold as there is no recess in the manifold to hold it. The seal is a rubber O-ring type (looks like a figure 8), so no gasket was needed.

My leaked a bit to start with, but it was not the manifold joint, it was the hose joint. I had to fit a second hose clip before it sealed.

Hope that helps.

Your stalling problem, could that be an intake air leak that opens as the engine warms?

[adventurer-96]

I’ve never dealt with a thermostat in the intake housing, not that I’m much of a gear head, but it was an experience. I know that the thermostat is designed to be a part of the engine, but in this case I’ll have to do without.

Well, here’s the update. I get to the inspection shop, and there’s a grounding problem preventing my turn signals from working when the headlights are on, so he won’t even consider doing an inspection, which I can understand. I decided to drive it to the shop where it was worked on and the car dies, similar to what it was doing before. Around 50-60, it stalls out as if it runs out of gas. This was after driving about 6 miles, around 20-40, no problems.

I got a tow there, the strange thing is the car will start up again after you let it sit for a bit. Here are some thoughts –

1. Vacuum in the gas tank? Rumor from an old British car buff I talked to.
2. Vaporizing gas in the fuel pump, as it’s over the exhaust.
3. Clogged fuel line. I have a clear filter before and after the pump but didn’t look as I was a little disgusted today.
4. Electrical gremlin that kills ignition somehow.
5. I have angered the Tiger gods and owe them a sacrifice of money and time.
6. Fuel delivery problem, such as low pressure at higher RPMs for sustained periods above about 50mph. The garage will check that by installing a pressure gauge while driving it, which I was going to do anyway.
7. (your suggestion here)

Here I was thinking it was a poorly rebuilt carb. Granted, my 390cfm Holley needs some jetting, and fine tuning on the timing, but I think the combo will work well.

[v-mad]

Problems like this can be due to some obscure fault, but I awlays find it pays to check the easy things first. So, first, I would check the fuel delivery rate.

Remove the hose from the carb, and put the end into a container with a 1 litre mark. Turn on the ignition, and measure the time taken to fill to the mark. You will have to do some calcs to find out how long it should take, based on a good pump (approx 18 gals/hour?). My very approx calc is a litre a minute. Yours will be well short of that if fuel delivery is the problem.

I have seen many posts where guys have found particles clogging the fuel lines and filters. These apparently come from the insides of the tanks. Personally I have had none of these problems on either car, but I did have weak pumps on both cars, and replaced them with high rate pumps. No more problems now.

[adventurer-96]

It has, to me, all the indications of a fuel delivery problem. I don’t discount the idea that there might be particulate in the fuel lines, since I didn’t watch the fuel filter by the pump on the highway. I hope to hear from the shop in a day or two as to whether or not they have looked at the fuel filters. I didn’t check yesterday as I was just interested in getting the car to the shop.

I did put in a brand new pump from Sunbeam Specialties, and this was the first item replaced, they put in a Bosch of some sort I believe.

Step one would seem to be getting a fuel pressure gauge & sending unit to measure the pressure at high RPMs. Constant pressure isn’t a guarantee of fuel flow in terms of volume, but it’s the easiest variable to monitor right now I’d think.

Keep those suggestions coming…

[adventurer-96]

Coil problems?

https://www.teae.org/cars/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1000

Looks like a similar problem experienced in the "Vapor Lock" thread in Tech Tips, I’m hoping to get an update from Frank.

Please, let it be that – because a new coil, mounted elsewhere, is easy to fix, and would explain a lot.

[frank-mooney]

I responded off line to Adventurer 96 included my thread https://www.teae.org/cars/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1000.Arrived after trial and error[mostly error] that the coil when overheated abruptly shuts down the engine but will restart the engine when it cools off [30 minutes or so]. Proposed preventive solutions,1.] move the coil from the upper bracket to a lower rear more remote cooler engine location, 2.] get a super coil but which is best? Victoria British [no experts in my opinion] offers a number of coils each with hyperbolic claims but which one would best withstand the heat is not addressed. I carry a spare coil in the interim.The weather is also starting to verge on nasty which can benefit Tiger owners spoilsports that we are! frank mooney

[v-mad]

Talking about coils, you could check to make sure the ballast resistor is correctly wired into the circuit. If it is bypassed, and the coil is getting full battery volts, it will overheat, and may well break down ❓

The coil should be running on about 6 volts. If it is getting near 12 volts, that could be your problem.

[adventurer-96]

Well, my question would be – wouldn’t I be unable to start the car immediately after stalling? As it stands right now, the engine dies, I coast to the side of the road, wait a few seconds, and I can start it back up. In fact, it idled for a good 5 minutes without issue after the first of the two stalls on Monday.

[adventurer-96]

BTW, thanks for the reply, Frank – I appreciate it.

Two other Tiger owners have told me that they suspect the infamous "paint from the gas tanks" clogging problem.

Let’s see what the shop says tomorrow.

Thanks to all for the replies.

[v-mad]

quote Adventurer_96:

Well, my question would be – wouldn’t I be unable to start the car immediately after stalling? As it stands right now, the engine dies, I coast to the side of the road, wait a few seconds, and I can start it back up. In fact, it idled for a good 5 minutes without issue after the first of the two stalls on Monday.

I think the fuel lines are clogged and the float bowl is emptying out under power. Then when you stop it gets chance to get topped up; thats why it restarts and idles OK. Let us know what you find.

[Bill & Natasha Rosenbusch]

Hi Pete!
My waterneck also leaked. New sealant, gasket, etc. I heard that
aluminum waternecks were prone to warping. So, Iwent to the salvage yard and got a steel one. Chromed it and no more leaking.

Hope this helps!
Bill (0069)

[gtsmrt]

Hi Pete,

I was thinking along the same lines as Chris (V_Mad) with your fuel delivery. What condition was the Holley 390 in when you installed it? What I am thinking, if the carby was not overhauled (new kit through it) it may have debris in it or even a poorly adjusted float and as Chris stated is running out of fuel.

Regards, Robin.

[adventurer-96]

I’ve been travelling with work lately and I haven’t been involved with the car.

According to the shop, the pump they installed was too weak at higher flow, so they put a Holley on and now there are no problems. They didn’t have an answer as to the conditions on the filters yet since the tech was out but the pump was definitely not giving enough volume, according to them.

So, maybe I’ll have a driveable Tiger here, now that we have a foot of snow in Utah.

More to follow, thanks for the words, guys – I’ll keep you posted.

[adventurer-96]

quote gtsmrt:

Hi Pete,

I was thinking along the same lines as Chris (V_Mad) with your fuel delivery. What condition was the Holley 390 in when you installed it? What I am thinking, if the carby was not overhauled (new kit through it) it may have debris in it or even a poorly adjusted float and as Chris stated is running out of fuel.

Regards, Robin.

Brand new out of the box intake & Holley 390.

Regarding the intake manifold, how screwy is it that there’s no inset for a thermostat on an Edelbrock? Oh well, at least I’ll have better coolant flow, even if it does take a while to warm up.

[adventurer-96]

I just got the car back from the shop.

They screwed up the installation of the new Holley fuel pump, it was leaking from the hose attachment fitting and dripping gasoline all over my muffler – scary. My wife noticed the garage reeked of gas while I was gone, and I found the leak. They had to send someone over to fix it, after I’d siphoned out almost all of the gas. I could have done it myself but if my car catches on fire now at least it’s their fault, not mine. Needless to say I wasn’t impressed.

They replaced the aftermarket generic fuel pump with a Holley pump, although with no top I’m not going to be able to take it for a shakedown until the weather warms up in UT. I suspect the car will be under wraps for a few months.

While they were fixing it in my garage, I replaced the filter cartridge in the filter between the tank and pump – crystal clear, no junk at all in the filter.

I wonder how hard it would be to replace the fuel lines coming from the Y fitting in the back.

Oh, to top it off – the coolant’s leaking from the water neck again.

[frank-mooney]

Adventurer I’m interested in confirming which Holley pump you had intalled.The Summit Catalog page 31 identifies one Holley model as providing 97gph,7 psi,red $102.95;fuel pump safety switch for any electric pump $22.95.Pumps come in all strengths but I’m not sure what is the appropriate pump for a street Tiger II with a Holley 600 cfm carb.Others are welcome to chime in.At 60 degrees today it’s Tiger top down weather. frank mooney

[adventurer-96]

I’ll have to check the numbers. I’ve been traveling with work, and I just found out I’m moving to northern Minnesota.

Time to install the top and windows, and to get the heater working.

[v-mad]

quote Adventurer_96:

I’ll have to check the numbers. I’ve been traveling with work, and I just found out I’m moving to northern Minnesota.

Time to install the top and windows, and to get the heater working.

On the subject of heaters, my blower motor stopped working. I found out that the heater matrix had leaked, and as the motor is mounted directly underneath, it had got into the motor bearings and corroded them 🙁

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