- This topic has 21 replies, 10 voices, and was last updated June 17, 2008 at 12:56 pm by
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I know that most T5 transmissions like those in the Mustangs are not suitable for directly fitting to the Tiger as the shift position is too far back. I think we need an AMC tailshaft but these are rare in the UuK.
Does anyone know what the T5 looks like that will fit the Tiger?
I have a picutre here of a T5 from a TVR Speed 6.http://i17.ebayimg.com/06/i/000/d0/05/4772_1.JPG
Does this look suitable?
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Tom Hall makes a T5 conversion kit that is complete, and can also supply the proper T5 transmission to go with it. All-in cost is about $4000, for a brand-new transmission, shifter, and drive shaft. I don’t recall if a clutch release bearing is included.
There are many different T5 configurations, and for a Tiger you want one of the "world class" versions, that can handle the torque output of the engine, as well as having ratios suitable for the Tiger. Many of the smaller-engine variants of the T5 have very high ratio first gear (even the Mustang trans comes with a 3.35 first) and these are completely unsuitable.
The different T5’s also can have different input shaft lengths and clutch spline size, so you want to be careful about that part as well.
So… it is possible to build a T5 from various parts that will sort-of work, with a lot of effort, and it requires sourcing parts from at least two different vehicles. Best source for the main body of the transmission and bellhousing is an ’87 to ’93 V8 Mustang; you still have to make sure you’re getting the World Class variant. The AMC tailshaft is very difficult to obtain these days. There is an alternative in using the GMC S-10 tailshaft assembly, but this leaves the speedo drive in an unfavorable position and apparently some parts of the speedo drive will need to be reworked to prevent leaks.
If you want a T5 that you can bolt in, talk to Tom. You have to figure out if it’s worth spending a lot of hours to reinvent the wheel…
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The Stock T-5 Myth
I’ve had a stock Mustang T-5 in my Tiger for about 12 years and 30,000 miles. By using a short after-market shift lever and turning it 180 degrees, the ball is in almost the same position as a toploader with a better travel radius. Seldom does anyone notice that the lever comes out of the floor rearward of the original.
Since it is the Stock Mustang T-5, it requires no modifications, it is much cheaper, the Tiger drive shaft fits and the speedometer cable fits with no leaks. It does require some body modifications. -
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I also am using a stock world class T5 from the Mustang in the Lister.The shifter is where the floor brace is.I cut the whole and made a box of 1/8th steel and welded it in and eliminated what could be a weak area if just left.There are some who just left a neat cut but I could not.I cut and bent the shifter to where my hand just falls on it.
In the 62 with the roller cam 302 with stage 3 heads I have the T5 from the thunderbird supercharged engine.Seems to be quite good but I still need to inleash it a few more times.I await spring.Again bolts in and did the work on the shifter as above.I still have a 90 Mustang T5 on the shelf just in case.
Yes there is a bit of tunnel mods but not that much. -
I started this topic from the point of view of Dan Walters article on Installing a T5 with no cutting, on the Tigers United website. Dans article alludes to the AMC tailshaft having the shifter near enough in the right position. Then I spotted this TVR tranny whick looks like it matches up. I will try to get some dimensions. I just hope TVR took the Mustang style input/output shafts with the correct lengths, splines and diameters; a Cosworth one would be no use to me.
I will ask the vendor to check those for me, but I am quite hopeful as the TVR Speed 6 engine has a high torque and horspower ratings similar to the V8 engines.
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quote Chuck Ingram:I also am using a stock world class T5 from the Mustang in the Lister.The shifter is where the floor brace is.I cut the whole and made a box of 1/8th steel and welded it in and eliminated what could be a weak area if just left.There are some who just left a neat cut but I could not.I cut and bent the shifter to where my hand just falls on it.
In the 62 with the roller cam 302 with stage 3 heads I have the T5 from the thunderbird supercharged engine.Seems to be quite good but I still need to inleash it a few more times.I await spring.Again bolts in and did the work on the shifter as above.I still have a 90 Mustang T5 on the shelf just in case.
Yes there is a bit of tunnel mods but not that much.I should clarify something.Both the Lister and the 62 were Alpines and such required a bit more work than just the tunnel.Mainly doing the firewall.
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If your car is right hand drive the tailshaft out of a s-10 might be your best bet. It would place the shift handle in the middle of the transmission tunnel, and the only cutting would be for the round hole for the shift handle. A trans mount would than need to be fabricated. I have a fixture to relocate the speedo hole to use the stock tiger cable. Depending on your rear end choice I recomend the 3.35 first and the .68 overdrive with a stock or 3.10 rear end. The closer ratio box is good for the track, but on the street the lower first saves changing the rear end for out of the hole acceleration and for the highway you want the best overdrive you can get. My car has a 3.10 w/a trac lok and the wide ratio t-5 on 205 50 15’s. My car is successful autocrossed and driven to United’s. If you want a tailshaft modified maybe we could work something out.
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Thanks for all your replies. I am fairly clued up on the various versions of T5, and I know that I need to source a ‘world class’ unit (although I think that definition was Ford’s, and not an official Tremec classification). I have a copy of some tables of a selection of part nos vs application, with data on torques and ratios, but this does not cover UK cars such as the TVRs.
Thanks also for your suggestions of suitable T5 suppliers, but unfortunately, living in the UK makes it more difficult to source one of these economically (on a budget). I am sure there are several companies in the USA/Canada that can provide what I want, but the cost of shipping by far prevents it being the best option.
So I was hoping for some guidance on what I can find available locally. I have noticed recently that the TVR units are becoming available at very affordable prices, and I think the gear ratios are quite good, but I have not yet got details of the dimensions, so I don’t know whether it would make a good unit for the Tiger. Does it look right to you? Is it like the AMC units?
As a couple of you have mentioned, I could adapt a stock Mustang T5 if I was prepared to do some mods to the tunnel (not clear what this actually involves), but on the Tiger I prefer to keep mods to a minimum, such as a slight relocation of the gear lever position; a shift to the right would be easy mod to do and would be beneficial for my RH drive car.
On the topic of suitable ratios, there seems to be quite a variety of opinions. Theo considers the 3.35 first completely unsuitable, whereas jloganjr actually recommends it!! Personally I like the high ratio (2.32) of the Toploader, so I will be looking for the nearest I can get to that, which is probably going to be 2.95 (as in the TVR, and the 5th gear ratio of 0.8 would give 29.9 mph per 1000 revs which I think is fine).
(BTW: Jloganjr, what is a s-10? Does it look like the TVR one I picuted in the link? But I think a 5th ratio of 0.68 is a bit too high (36.6 mph per 1000 revs)).
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The link you have posted shows a tailshaft that looks like the S-10 (which is a small pickup truck made by GM). It would locate the shift handle forward 4-5 inches. I don’t understand why change to the 5-speed and than get the ratios closest to the toplaoder. At 80 I’m turning 2500, which is very comfortable, quieter, easier on the motor, better gas mileage.
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3.35 first gear is OK if you have a 2.88 rear end. I have a 3.31 gearset in the diff and I expect first to be OK only for casual driving; on any autocross it will likely be better to launch the car in second gear to avoid having to shift about 2 seconds after leaving the line.
I’ll post a picture of my trans tunnel mod maybe this weekend. You can judge whether or not you’d be willing to do that to your Tiger. I decided that if I really wanted to then I could bang some sheetmetal into place and rebuild the original lateral bracing.
As it was, a PO had done some other modifications to the bellhousing area to improve access to the bellhousing bolts (presumably for easier engine/transmission removal), and I ended up patching those as well as reversing some other modifications done sometime in the last 40 years. As the owner, the decision of what’s right is yours.
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Instead of putting a T5 trans, you may want to look into a toploader overdrive http://www.gearvendors.com/aghr4sm.html. The unit costs $2995 and replaces the trans extension housing. It appears to be less involved and cheaper than putting in a different trans.
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quote :It appears to be less involved and cheaper than putting in a different trans.
Check this picture for what the Gear Vendors replacement extension housing looks like. Now imagine fitting that into the part of the transmission tunnel that is about 1/2" wider than the existing Toploader housing.
Also, it’s $3K, while Tom Hall’s T5 kit costs $2250 or so. Tom will sell you a complete transmission with all extra parts for about $4k, while David Kee Toploaders will sell you a rebuilt Toploader with the Gear Vendors overdrive for $4595:
http://www.4speedtoploaders.com/toploaderpricelist.htmSo, I have my doubts that it’s neither less involved nor cheaper…
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WOW
These figures regarding T5 conversion costs are something else.
On the lister when I did it back when it cost me $800 for the 1985 T5 tranny and that included the bell housing.It may have took a $100 or so more but I did all the work.On the 62 I have the so called world class T5 on the shelf and in the car I have the T5 from the supercharged Tbird.Together they cost me about 650. Actually I did trade some parts for the T5 from the Tbird so that cut the cost.
Of course if you are just a bolt in person the cost can be much more expendsive.
To me its the challenge which I do enjoy. -
I paid $1250 for the engine and transmission… then I got a lightweight flywheel for about $400, and the harmonic balancer ended up being about $80 or so I think. As you say, you can save money if you can do your own engineering and installation of parts that were not put together that way by Ford.
The figures quoted in my previous post were for brand new parts. Tom’s kit in particular is a bolt-in item, using a low-volume production casting specifically designed to locate the shifter in the stock Tiger hole, and everything else required to make that happen. You also get an aftermarket transmission with ratios not available in an OEM (Ford) configuration, so as to optimize things for the diff ratios commonly used in Tigers. If you tried to duplicate his efforts you’d be out far more than the 4k figure…
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quote Theo:quote :It appears to be less involved and cheaper than putting in a different trans.
Check this picture for what the Gear Vendors replacement extension housing looks like. Now imagine fitting that into the part of the transmission tunnel that is about 1/2″ wider than the existing Toploader housing.
Also, it’s $3K, while Tom Hall’s T5 kit costs $2250 or so. Tom will sell you a complete transmission with all extra parts for about $4k, while David Kee Toploaders will sell you a rebuilt Toploader with the Gear Vendors overdrive for $4595:
http://www.4speedtoploaders.com/toploaderpricelist.htmSo, I have my doubts that it’s neither less involved nor cheaper…
I think that Gearvendors piece is unreal! Can you imagine a clutchless 1-2 (1st over) shift with my 3.54 posi… lol! Would swap about 3 lanes I’m sure… Looking at the dimensions…and where it has to go…HUGE cutting involved…if not impossible…:(
I’m thinking of going the T5 route in my car… I’ve just acquired the AMC tailhousing piece. It has the shifter forward but it is right in the middle so I’m now wondering if it needs to be be rocked to the driver’s side a bit to come up in the right hole? I also see sideways offset ( about 2") shifters for TKO’s but not sure if there is one for a T5. Also the speedo hookup looks a bit odd on the AMC tailhousing… not sure how easy it is to hook that up…
I was thinking of getting an ’83 to ’93 Mustang core…putting in the 2.95 first gear z-spec gearset and input shaft ( about $469) as I think the 3.35 would be too low for my 3.54’s and 24.5" tires… and I need the torque rating for my new engine…
I also have access to a Chevette T5 and have been given the tailhousing # which is different from the AMC one but I haven’t actually seen it so hard to say if the shifter’s in the same location …
A lot to consider..but it sure would be nicer on the highway with one more gear…!
Does anyone have Tom Hall’s ph# ? I’m sure he could answer some of my questions on the swap… -
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OK, I just bought a T5 that I hope I can use on the Tiger with some modification. It was advertised as a Mustang T5 but I think its from an an Australian Falcon EL (which apparently uses a Windsor 302 engine).
The front shaft is a 10 spline, but it only measures 6.6 inches, which I think is shorter than the Mustang; so I dont know if it will fit.
I read somewhere you can get the tail section off, but I am having problems with that. Does anyone know, do I have to drill out the roll pin in the shifter linkage to get it apart?
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You can just tap the roll pin into the bottom half of the shift block…not too far…just enough so that the shift rod will slide through…
Tremec has a free download of the manual…http://www.ttcautomotive.com/English/onlineorder/product.asp#Service%20Manuals
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Chris,
You should use a T-5 bell housing that fits the Mustang 5.0 L . You can replace the input shaft with one of proper length and spline. Your transmission may not be a World Class. World Class means it has roller bearings on the shafts rather than sleeve bearings and has a higher torque rating, although the Comaro transmissions weren’t World Class.
John Logan
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