- This topic has 28 replies, 7 voices, and was last updated May 11, 2006 at 3:37 am by
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I am working the brakes on my Alpine and want to get a bit more clamping force up front. I have read hints of guys running Toyota 4 Runner calipers on Tigers but have never heard any of the particulares. The stock calipers have a 3 1/4 inch bolt spacing and the rest of the world uses 3 1/2 inch spacing so the Toyota or Volvo or Wilwood all are not a bolt on. I have thought to just drill the mount holes in a set of toyota or Wilwood calipers and install an offset bushing but then there is the spacing rotor diameter and such to deal with. I am going to upgrade to a bigger caliper and right now the only after market bolt on I can find is the Outlaw M16 would like to use something a little less costly but if that is what it ends up taking… anyone running a non stock front caliper mounted on the stock mounting points?
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Jim
I believe some one in the Tiger community has installed the Mustang spindle and rotor in a Tiger.I for one cannot remember who but some one must know.Maybe they will see this and answer.The vented rotor and caliper and pads of the Mustang is about 1.5 times more area for braking.
I hope to keep the Mustang front end in my 62 but I’m not that close as yet.If I can’t I will use the front end I had on the Lister and see about using the Mustang spindle.I can’t afford to go with the complete redesign at this point that I did with the Lister.That is not to say I won’t.Using all new parts it is not cheap.
8) but it is another sunny day -
Hi Jim
Have you checked out http://www.pegasusautoracing.com ?
I got their catalog yesterday and it shows a variety of calipers and rebuild kits too. They even sell the hard to find seal that goes between the caliper halves when you split the calipers. Eric -
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Eric think I ran across that site at one time when I was searching for the Outlaw M16 calipers. They list them for about $190 each which is not bad for a bolt on alloy four pot upgrade for our cars.
T-GRRR, nice brake set up! Little more than I want to do but am happy to get a look at it. I am hoping to use the stock mounting points and rotors. Would really like to use a set of Wilwood calipers but do not see a way to get there yet. Plus I am not sure they make a caliper for a 1/2 inch rotor thickness. Will have to go look at the wilwood site again and see what they offer.
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I compared a stock caliper to this one [Dynalite that is] and it looks like it will work provided the mount holes in the caliper can be drilled to a larger size and then fit with an off set bushing. Then there is the Outlaw M16 caliper that is a bolt on no bushing needed the Outlaw caliper is around $190 the Wilwood is $135.
Here is the link to the Wilwood caliper that I am looking at.
http://www.wilwood.com/Products/001-Cal … /index.aspHere is the Outlaw caliper.
http://www.pegasusautoracing.com/Produc … RecId=4400 -
Jim
I like the outlaw caliper and if that was all I neede to do I think I would go with it.However I will be looking at the mustang spindles to fit. at first look they seem to be the same height.With larger braking area and vented discs I will be just fine.I have a friend who is probably the best in front ends and does lots of the big tractor trucks.US truckers if they know there coming to Winnipeg make appointments.His front end man does nearly all the car club members cars for many miles.To make it short my friend is coming for coffee one of these nights and will look at it. -
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quote Jim E:Chuck,
What is involved with the MII spindle? how is the offset does it keep the wheel in the same location or does it stick it out board more than it is already?Jim
Questions,questions.
Jim I’m not that far as of yet.Im trying to find the floor and top of the bench right now.However I did hear of it being done.Hopefully I will have some vision of where I’m going on this.I think it was Tom Patton ??? who fitted mustang spindles.
Now that you asked I will measure the distance the hubs of the spindles are from the center line of the ball joints. Actually I wouldn’t mind if the mustang spindles are out further as the 8 inch rear end was never narrowed as it matched the mustang front end that was in the 62.
Isn’t all of this fun? 8) yep its sunny -
Chuck think you convinced me to just order the Outlaw calipers and not mess around with the Wilwood. I called the folks at the above link for the Outlaw units and they were very nice have the calipers in stock pads add another $40 or so in the end looking at a $450 brake upgrade… Guy on the phone said they sell a ton of those calipers to all the British car guys who run the 16 calipers. I am pretty much thinking what the heck have spent a heap on making it go what is a for more hundred making it stop.
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Jim
You are right on the target saying it is now the time to spend than be fixing things later.I do think the outlaw calipers will be the best choice.As I mentioned they would be my choice.Thy sure seem to be ideal.
I will update the spindle mods if and when I know what will work.Just started to remove the Mustang spindles last night.I want to see what I can can come up withas a simpler mod to the whole front end.It was in the $4000 bracket for what I did for the Lister.Of course every part was new which quickly adds up the dollars but I sure feel it was money well spent.
8) Yes it is sunny again.That is just the way it is and not neccessarily the weather -
It would be great if you guys that have made brake improvements would summit a Tech article on your accomplishments. Send it to me and I will edit it for the Rootes Review. I can help you with it if you want.
John Logan
Carmods@aol.com -
John
I assume you are talking to Jim and me.I’m sure when it is done one way or the other we will do a report.I still remember the help you gave me and are still willing to give.
I like the outlaw calipers Jim is going to use and who knows I may end up there.I have the Mustang spindles off and now need to remove one spindle of the Sunbeam front end.Then comes the fun part to see what it takes to fit the mustang spindle.
Thankfully both front ends are on the dolly and not in the cars. -
This might open up a whole can of worms but… once folks get behind the boards this is where the tech write ups will be. People could be invited to submit a write up of any kind about Rootes cars and it be posted with pictures not as a thread but as a feature on the site. In my opionion the days of spending the money a club brings in on a paper mailer are numbered. Just my opinion and I am sure there are plenty of folks who do not agree with me on this but times are a changing.
I will try and send in a write up may not be on brakes but on something.
Think of the event we could have at no cost to members if we took all the money we spend on the newsletter every year and spent it on a BASH….
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Jim
That is a sweet looking caliper.For the brake lone at the worst you should just have to change the fittin to the brake hose.
I have successfully mated the Mustang calipers to the sunbeam.The conversion still uses the stock sunbeam ball joints.Will be doing an article on this so stay tuned.
8) So sunny I fired up the lister.Ohh so sweet a sound. -
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I’ll just ramble on here for a while. When fitting a different front brake system to a Sunbeam, I would rate the selection on the following criteria. This is not necessarily in priority order.
· Lighter weight
Lighter weight of the brake assembly improves the ride and handling· Increased piston area
Under equal hydraulic pressure, the clamping force of the caliper is only increased by increasing piston area.· Larger disk diameter
Brake torque is a function of the clamping force, the friction coefficient between the pad and the disk and the radius of the pad centroid from the axis. As an example, if you increase the piston area by 20% and the disk diameter by 10% you will increase the braking torque by 32%. The downside is the larger package.· Vented disk
Although a larger brake pad area is an important criterion, vented disks are more important. Most modern cars have vented front disks that have vastly improved cooling. Because the Tiger is a light vehicle this may not be an important criteria but there must be a performance improvement to give us justification for the modification, right?· Increased pad area
Brake pad size is not irrelevant. The coefficient of friction of the pad on the disk surface is generally dependent on the pad material and the pad and disk temperature. This is where pad size becomes relevant. Passenger car pad material is selected that has a coefficient of friction that remains consistently high under normal operating conditions so that the driver experiences good braking performance. If the brakes over heat, as when the car is going down unusually steep grades the coefficient of friction reduces drastically so fading occurs. For this reason, larger pads will give better braking because they can absorb more heat before fade.
When racing type pads, usually high metallic, are used, a different phenomenal occurs. When cold, these pads have very low friction and when hot the friction is high. When with these pads are used in a road race car, the temperature stays high while racing so the braking torque stays high, minimizing fade. If used in your normal passenger car, the pads stay relatively cool so high pedal pressures are required to stop the vehicle.· More pistons
Smaller multiple pistons will fit within the pad area and spread the clamping load out evenly to reduce uneven pressure across the pad.· Smaller package
If a smaller package were found that would allow the disk and caliper to move outward, the steering arm could move out and allow an improvement in steering Ackerman.· Low cost of installation
Machining is an expensive proposition if you have to pay someone to do it. Finding parts that can be retrofitted with a minimum of machining would make the modification achievable for more of our members.· Available new and used parts over a long term
There must be used parts in junkyards that fit. If parts are used from a low production car, it sometimes doesn’t’t take long before the replacement parts cost more than Sunbeam parts. I modified my rear brakes using Mazda 1985 RX7 components because the junkyards were full of good parts. Now they are all gone around here and if parts stores have them they ask a premium price.· Looks good
When we show these brakes to someone it’s nice to hear “Wow” when they look at them!· Other
Now, tell me what I forgot to mention.I’m interested in the ideas that some of you have and I hope you will keep putting them put them in this Forum. For your information, I fitted a 2002 Mustang Cobra caliper with a 10”x 1” vented disk to a Sunbeam spindle. It will fit on either a Tiger or Alpine and have an increased braking torque of 43%. That increase would cause a front to rear brake balance problem. It looked good with the polished Cobra name on it. However, because of the heavy vented disk, the assembly weighs 2.6 lb more then the Sunbeam assembly. I feel this is unacceptable.
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This is a very interesting discussion, as I stand for the same problem.
First problem is, that I have 14″ Revolution wheels and I will not change to 15″ or 16″. Therefore the space for the brake is limited.
But for me the most important thing for tuning a brake is to fit a bigger vented disk. I think, it makes no sense to fit other calibers on the original disks. It would be better to fit bigger disks with the original calibers.
The second reason is the price. I think it would be easy to buy a complete set from dale`s restoration for 820 Dollar and install this parts and everything is fine. But this is a little expensive I think.
Therefore I will look at some other parts (maybe I will get some brembo calibers) and I will test some disks to see what will fit without much work.
I will tell you then the results.
By the way, I see no problem about the brakebalance when fitting a stronger brake at the front. It would be a big problem to fit stronger brakes at the rear because the badest thing is a overbraking rear, but on the front, I see really no problem.regards
Hans -
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Jim E, It seem like we have lost some of the responses on this topic. The following was to answer some questions from Todd but today I see neither his post nor my response so I am going to resend it.
Yes Todd, the whole tire, wheel, brake, spindle and suspension contribute to undesirable unsprung weight.
I still have Michelin TRX tires. I like the wheels so I spend the premium on tires from Cooker. I just replaced them after 15 years and 50,000 miles because of all the discussion on tire age. When I got them off, there were no cracks or checking that would lead to failure but they were beginning to get worn and hard. For the price of the rear tires alone I could have bought a complete set of wheels and tires.
As for rear brake effectiveness, the rear is the first place to start to improve Tiger/Alpine braking. By replacing the poor performing rear drum brakes with proper disk brakes you then start using the rear to help stop instead of just the fronts. Because disk brakes are self-adjusting, you drastically reduce pedal travel the same time. You can then use a smaller master cylinder, eliminate the lousy booster and end up with less pedal travel then stock. You have to be concerned if you increase the front piston area too much you will affect the front-to-rear balance. Rear disk brakes are also lighter!
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