Alpine V

[David DeRoberts]

I am a new member to the club. I have a 67 Alpine V that my son and I redid 2 years ago. i am having some clutch problems where i am having problems getting the clutch into gear. Slave is new and on the back side of the housing. New clutch plate pressure plate and new throw out bearing. problems getting it into 1st. after that seems to slide thru all other gears. reverse grinds. Thought maybe it was the main bearing so we checked those and they seem to be fine. Any ideas?
Dave DeRoberts Columbus Ohio

[Michael Hartman and Donna Bissey]

It sounds like engaging the clutch is not fully disengaging the gearbox input shaft from the flywheel. There could be multiple reasons:
– the pressure plate is not being fully employed. E.g. the clutch slave is not moving the throw-out bearing arm far enough, or some other reason.
– the gearbox input shaft is binding in the pilot bushing in the flywheel
– the clutch disc is sticking to the flywheel

This past winter, I replaced my gearbox, clutch disc, pilot bushing, and rebuilt the clutch hydraulics. My car sat a few months more while some other work was finished up. When I finally got the car running, I had a similar issue. I could not get the gearbox into gear with the clutch depressed. I thought maybe the clutch parts were binding from sitting a while, so I tried a simple test. I applied the handbrake fully, blocked all 4 wheels, opened the garage door and made sure the area outside the garage door opening was clear. I applied the clutch, selected reverse gear, then I started the car. I felt the car wanting to move a little bit upon starting and for a few more seconds, but the car remained in place. Then I revved the engine a bit to 2k – 2.5k rpms. I then put the gearbox in neutral and disengaged the clutch. Then I was able to apply the clutch and select any gears without grinding.

So in my situation, I had some minor binding of components and I used the starter to break it free. I think my clutch disc was sticking to the flywheel after sitting for a while.

I think you can try this test to see if you have minor binding of components. If you can’t get the car started with this test and/or the car is lunging, then it would seem more likely the pressure plate is not fully releasing the pressure on the clutch disc.

Mike

[David DeRoberts]

Thanks Mike. I tried your idea with the reverse and that didn’t seem to make a difference. I feel that the pilot bushing might be the issue. I doesn’t feel like the the pressure plate is engaging enough. I’m getting a good throw on the slave (about 1 inch) which i would think is enough? It feels like the clutch disc might be slipping? Could I have the wrong pressure plate? The one I put in fits and matches up but looks a little different than the original?

[Michael Hartman and Donna Bissey]

One inch throw on the clutch slave arm sounds sufficient. Maybe the new clutch slave + arm is slightly shorter? Did you get a rebuilt Lockheed 99364C slave or a reproduction item? You can probably check the distance from the bell housing to the end of the new clutch slave + arm is the same length as the original clutch slave + arm.

Did you replace the pilot bushing when you replaced the other components? If you did replace it, you needed to soak it in engine oil for a day or more prior to installation.

Is the replacement throw-out bearing the carbon-type and did it look like the same size as the one that was replaced?
http://mhartman.net/photos/Sunbeam/20141019-002_release_bearing_pivot.JPG

I have a couple different pressure plate designs.
What is on my car now. I think it is Borg & Beck:
http://mhartman.net/photos/Sunbeam/20140924-017.JPG

And a replacement pressure plate, which I think is made by QH (Quinton Hazell):
http://mhartman.net/photos/Sunbeam/DSC04616.JPG
I have not tried the QH pressure plate. I picked it up from a fellow sunbeamer to have as a spare. Supposedly, it came off a series V and worked …

And I am assuming you have the 7-1/2" clutch components…

Mike

[David DeRoberts]

Yes the Slave is the same length. I just replaced it over the weekend hoping it might have been the issue. I did not replace the pilot bushing when we did the rebuild so that’s why I suspect it. I replaced the throw out 2 years ago when we did the work. I had a problem right before the Dayton meet and we pulled the engine out and found that the throw out had shifted. (either the clips weren’t put on or they fell off) I replaced the throw out with a new one and a new pressure plate at that time. Pressure plate looks like the one in the picture you sent me. I didn’t replace the clutch plate as it seemed ok and was replaced in 2013. I have a pilot and that’s going to be my next project.

[Michael Hartman and Donna Bissey]

The pilot bushing will wear over time. I would not expect it to be binding on the gearbox input shaft if it was not replaced. I suppose it is possible the bushing was damaged / deformed when reinstalling the gearbox and it is binding on the gearbox input shaft.

So you replaced the throw out bearing and pressure plate two years ago and have not driven the car since then?

What happened when you started the car while the clutch was depressed and the gearbox was in reverse?

Mike

[David DeRoberts]

We replaced the plate,clutch and throw out 2 years ago. We had an issue that we couldn’t get it in gear. We changed out the plate with the old one and it worked a little better. I drive it for the last 2 years maybe a 1000 miles total. Last year it started acting up when trying to put it in gear. Some days it would work some not so good. this year when i got it out it started to get rougher. last month it got to the point I couldn’t drive it and that’s when we took it apart and found the throw out was worn down and maybe damaged the pressure plate. we put in the new pressure plate from 2 years ago and a new throw out. not much improvement. I was able to drive it down to Dayton but it got worse. I had a suggestion that maybe it was the main bearings but the mechanic said the engine ran to good for it to be that. The clutch is a 7 1/2 inch so I believe it is correct. It does feel like the clutch is slipping. as for the reverse test. put brake on and blocked tires. put the clutch in and put in reverse. started the car and let out on the clutch out. car wanted to go backwards but did not stall out. did not let the clutch out all the way. should I let the clutch out quickly and see if the car will stall?

[Michael Hartman and Donna Bissey]

Starting up the car with the clutch engaged and the gearbox in reverse was to check if the clutch disc was stuck to the flywheel or the input shaft was binding in the pilot bushing. It doesn’t sound like you have either issue.

The throw out bearing you installed two years ago had already worn down within 1,000 miles? Is that why you replaced the clutch slave – figuring it was not retracting the pivot arm properly? Did you do anything with the clutch master?

It sounds like the throw out bearing may be rubbing on the pressure plate even when the clutch is not engaged. Will the pivot arm move freely slightly before getting stiff resistance? Do you have a photo of the clutch slave and the pivot arm in the bell housing? I am wondering where the pivot arm is sitting ‘at rest’.
http://mhartman.net/photos/Sunbeam/20140921-004_clutch_slave.JPG

Are you sure you don’t have air in the clutch hydraulics? The bleed screw is on top on the clutch slave? Maybe try quickly pumping the clutch pedal to see if that makes a difference in being able to go into gear?

If the main bearings are bad, at idle you probably will see an RPM drop when you engage the clutch.

Mike

[David DeRoberts]

I believe the throw out wore down because the clips that hold it in were either left off or broke off. the throw out was wore on 1 side. I’ll check the thrown out and take a picture tonight and attach. It appears like the one you have in the picture. I bought a new slave just to try a new idea. i have not done anything with the master. Before we did the restoration the clutch worked fine. after putting in new parts it’s never worked right. I too believe it’s a bleed issue but I’ve bleed it every which way possible. One thing i noticed is that your line from the slave. mine has an adapter on it to fit the threads to a different line? your line might appear to be a bit larger than mine? I can’t find any leakage but I know that could be tricky. I’ve been using a NAPA DOT 4 fluid? I’ll try and forward you some pictures tonight. the RPM’s do drop slightly when I depress the clutch but I believe it has always done that. thanks for all the good thoughts.

[George and Beverly and Beverly Coleman]

It could be the thrust bearings. You said that you have an adapter on the slave feed line? that could also be a problem with fluid flow. 8) Was that adaptor on the car before?

[David DeRoberts]

Hey George, thanks for the help. I spoke to you last week. Can’t remember if the adapter was there or not. I think when I did the rebuild we might have changed it as trying to find a new line with those threads wasn’t available so we used an adapter. I will try this. As for the thrust bearings I did what you said about seeing if the crankshaft moved in and out when I depressed the clutch (while running). It does not. We even tried from under the car to move it with a screwdriver (not running) and it won’t move. My mechanic said that if the bearing were bad the engine would run poorly? The engine seems pretty strong. I’m about ready to hang myself!!

[George and Beverly and Beverly Coleman]

Don’t do that I know that these cars sometimes gets the best of you but you will figure it out as for the motor running and the bearing issue it will still run good not always dose that cause problems. I would have to leally look at it to see what is going on. Maybe a pressure plate issue its hard to say. I would change it out for a 8 inch clutch setup and do away with the 7 1/2 since it is getting hard to find them now.

[Michael Hartman and Donna Bissey]

I purchased a replacement clutch hydraulic line from Sunbeam Specialties within the past year. It is the right length and fits the stock clutch master and slave connections. I am wondering what slave you have.

Mike

[David DeRoberts]

Hey guys thanks again for the help. I put the rope back in the garage for now!!
I’ll try ordering a new line to see if that helps. george i think you were saying that the motor might still run good even though the thrust bearings might be bad?
I hate to pull this engine again to work on the PP or new clutch issue. To go the the 8 inch i would need to change out the Flywheel to the older model?

[George and Beverly and Beverly Coleman]

Yes you would need an Alpine I-early-VI flywheel.

[David DeRoberts]

Hey George I know this is a stupid questions but the thrust bearing you speak about. On the transmission or the engine? i see a trust bearing in one of my workshop manuals in the transmission.

[George and Beverly and Beverly Coleman]

These are on the engine they are located on the center main of the crankshaft.

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